The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

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Should we lose, keep, or change the fleur as our logo?

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The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:53 pm

Opinions about the forum logo (Ace Spectrum flag superimposed on a fleur de lis) vary widely between forum members.
I like the logo, but I'm willing to change it if others have something better in mind.

Please vote at your convenience, and if you want it changed, please post your suggestion of the change in this thread. Smile
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Arcanine on Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:13 pm

I like the Fleur. I like how distinctive of a symbol it is, I say that we keep it. Hopefully it will become a widely recognized symbol at some point in the future. Smile
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by mel on Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:43 pm

I'm just going to link to the other thread where I discussed this

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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by epochryphal on Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:46 pm

Hmm...I think mel's input on the other thread is important, so brainstorming other symbols would be nice (pretty as the fleur is).

I agree with avoiding spades and hearts - but what about clubs? I really like clubs and have used them as a wtf/grey-romantic symbol. Or do we want to leave card suits to romantic orientations altogether?
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:08 am

Considering the clubs/diamonds, etc., are the symbols as found on playing cards, and carry the heavy implication of 'ace'... and considering the forum's target audience is a group that does not identify as totally ace... I think using card motifs is a bit touchy. Otherwise I'd be all for it. Razz
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by hexaquark on Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:45 pm

Don’t take this the wrong way, but never underestimate a symbol's ambiguity. I expect we can all agree that there are unintended problems with the AVEN triangle because the implications were not fully considered back in 2001 when it was first used on AVEN.

When I saw the fleur-de-lis logo on this forum, I thought it was an odd choice, because my brain flicked through all the things I know that the fleur-de-lis has been used to symbolize, and tossed aside things like “France” and “royalty” because they did not make sense in this context. So the first things I landed on (like mel mentioned in the other thread) were “purity”, “chastity”, and “virginity”, which I was certain you were not going for, but it doesn’t change the fact that the fleur and the lily from which it derives already have those meanings. It does confound our issues.

History can repeat itself, the AVEN triangle was up for debate, and with the problems going on with that symbol right now, please give this some careful thought.

Quoting that link under the cut because AVEN is always on the fritz these days.
Spoiler:

AVENguy Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:57 PM:
Yeah, the triangle was just something I cooked up a while back, though it doesn't really work as a symbol anymore (if you look at the AVEN sympol article under information on asexuality it's derivation is mostly, ya know, wrong. There isn't a gender binary with just male and female, and asexuals don't "go to the center," we can experience gendered attraction.) I actually LIKE the reference to the GLBT pink triangle. Between the color and the pattern it's clearly a different thing, and I see asexuality as related to GLBT/queer issues (we're all sexualities.) I'm all for changing the symbol if people feel like they have a better suggestion. Mostly it just has to be:

Simple
Origional
Easily recognisable
Have some vague metaphorial link to asexuality

I think of the triangle as the AVEN symbol (not "the asexual symbol.") Which is why I've sorta had it up there without much community discussion. I'm not particularely attached to it though, and we could definitely replace it (if so we should do so soon, so we can have the right symbol for the discovery channel show.) The two circles are ok, but they're less recognizable (circles are next to each other ALOT) and they can be be construed as saying something about gender-nuetrality, which is confusing.

Does anyone here use ace as an umbrella term? There has been a trend on tumblr where people are doing that, to avoid using asexual as an umbrella term for those in the ace spectrum. Not that I'm saying you should use the card motif.

Hmm, I was going to suggest a prism, since sexuality is a spectrum, but what do you know, most prisms are represented as triangular, so I came full circle.



Dies of the irony.

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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by mel on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:45 pm

hexaquark wrote:Don’t take this the wrong way, but never underestimate a symbol's ambiguity. I expect we can all agree that there are unintended problems with the AVEN triangle because the implications were not fully considered back in 2001 when it was first used on AVEN.

When I saw the fleur-de-lis logo on this forum, I thought it was an odd choice, because my brain flicked through all the things I know that the fleur-de-lis has been used to symbolize, and tossed aside things like “France” and “royalty” because they did not make sense in this context. So the first things I landed on (like mel mentioned in the other thread) were “purity”, “chastity”, and “virginity”, which I was certain you were not going for, but it doesn’t change the fact that the fleur and the lily from which it derives already have those meanings. It does confound our issues.

History can repeat itself, the AVEN triangle was up for debate, and with the problems going on with that symbol right now, please give this some careful thought.

Quoting that link under the cut because AVEN is always on the fritz these days.
Spoiler:

AVENguy Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:57 PM:
Yeah, the triangle was just something I cooked up a while back, though it doesn't really work as a symbol anymore (if you look at the AVEN sympol article under information on asexuality it's derivation is mostly, ya know, wrong. There isn't a gender binary with just male and female, and asexuals don't "go to the center," we can experience gendered attraction.) I actually LIKE the reference to the GLBT pink triangle. Between the color and the pattern it's clearly a different thing, and I see asexuality as related to GLBT/queer issues (we're all sexualities.) I'm all for changing the symbol if people feel like they have a better suggestion. Mostly it just has to be:

Simple
Origional
Easily recognisable
Have some vague metaphorial link to asexuality

I think of the triangle as the AVEN symbol (not "the asexual symbol.") Which is why I've sorta had it up there without much community discussion. I'm not particularely attached to it though, and we could definitely replace it (if so we should do so soon, so we can have the right symbol for the discovery channel show.) The two circles are ok, but they're less recognizable (circles are next to each other ALOT) and they can be be construed as saying something about gender-nuetrality, which is confusing.

Does anyone here use ace as an umbrella term? There has been a trend on tumblr where people are doing that, to avoid using asexual as an umbrella term for those in the ace spectrum. Not that I'm saying you should use the card motif.

Hmm, I was going to suggest a prism, since sexuality is a spectrum, but what do you know, most prisms are represented as triangular, so I came full circle.



Dies of the irony.

I don't think we'd ever be rid of the associations with pink floyd either Wink
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:03 am

Mel, thanks for saying it so I didn't have to. >_< <3


That said, wicked graphic. :]
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by hexaquark on Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:35 pm

Yeah I noticed that Very Happy. It wasn’t a serious suggestion, I just wanted to be more productive than saying that I think the fleur-de-lis is something to tread lightly with, and then running away. Though in the long run, would you rather be associated with Pink Floyd or chastity Wink? Also I’m pretty sure that is not how prisms split light, but damned if I didn’t want the overlap anyway. It looked better.

Are you going to stick with the fleur unless something better comes along?

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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:14 pm

Are you going to stick with the fleur unless something better comes along?

Yup. Razz
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Smiley Tom on Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:24 am

Personally i quite like Tegids avatar (if you don't want to use it fair enough it is your avatar) maybe without the green circle or the n and infinity sign but i feel it is a fairly simple graphic that can be easily embellished to suit the individual.
With regards to the fleur de lis, other connotations aside, it is very similar to the scouting symbol which is a white fleur de lis on a purple background. The only major difference (to the ones on the sides of the banner) is that the scout logo has a star in each of the side fronds. The rope around the outside of the scout fleur de lis is supposed to represent the world wide part of the movement and the symbol is fairly regularly used without it (at least here in the UK).
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by mel on Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:36 pm

Smiley Tom wrote:Personally i quite like Tegids avatar (if you don't want to use it fair enough it is your avatar) maybe without the green circle or the n and infinity sign but i feel it is a fairly simple graphic that can be easily embellished to suit the individual.
With regards to the fleur de lis, other connotations aside, it is very similar to the scouting symbol which is a white fleur de lis on a purple background. The only major difference (to the ones on the sides of the banner) is that the scout logo has a star in each of the side fronds. The rope around the outside of the scout fleur de lis is supposed to represent the world wide part of the movement and the symbol is fairly regularly used without it (at least here in the UK).

Regarding Tegid's avatar (and I don't know if this is intentional) but the stylized "A" cut into the colored heart used actually has a very strong association with the Anarchist movement so might not be appropriate as a general symbol.
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Smiley Tom on Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:11 pm

Yep fair enough i missed that. Guess its a bit hard to find symbols without some form of association. Maybe one way to go about it would be to work out what we want to be associated with and try and combine those symbols, or just leave it as it is.
Anyway i just knocked up a heart similar to Tegid's but using the peace symbol instead of the A you'll have to forgive me its paint and i only have my laptop track pad.
Spoiler:
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:04 pm



Our avatar is a combination of the ace spectrum flag, the Relationship Anarch symbol (pictured above), the plurality flag and "n" icon, and the polyamory lemniscate.

Unless we want to be directly identified with relationship anarchy (not that that's a bad thing, but many folk including demis and graces still identify with traditional relationship styles only, and might find that association problematic), we need to avoid any similar cutting-away-from-hearts.

Also there's the whole... 'peace sign = hippy liberals' connotation, which again might bother some folk.

The icon is excellent, Smiley Tom, and in another context would be great for conveying cooperation and peaceful, respectful interactions and sex-and-romance positivity... but if the goal is to replace a symbol-with-loaded-connotations with something lacking loaded connotations, then intersecting more loaded icons probably isn't the way for us to make that happen. :-/
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Corinius on Fri May 25, 2012 1:16 am

hexaquark wrote: . . . When I saw the fleur-de-lis logo on this forum, I thought it was an odd choice, because my brain flicked through all the things I know that the fleur-de-lis has been used to symbolize, and tossed aside things like “France” and “royalty” because they did not make sense in this context. So the first things I landed on (like mel mentioned in the other thread) were “purity”, “chastity”, and “virginity”, which I was certain you were not going for, but it doesn’t change the fact that the fleur and the lily from which it derives already have those meanings. It does confound our issues. . . .

I did exactly the same thing. (For those of you wondering, the other thread in which mel brought this up is here). I also believe that there's a better symbol out there to represent this Forum and its goals (though for the life of me I can't think of one right now!) That being said, I think the concerns hexaquark brought up about hastily deciding upon some other symbol are quite valid.

I guess my suggestion would be to create a thread in the suggestion section specifically devoted to suggesting a better symbol than the fleur-de-lis and discussion on it. Should this thread bring to light a viable suggestion, put it up as a poll to replace the fleur-de-lis, and become the forum's rallying cry.

To summarize the last paragraph: suggestion, suggestion, suggesting, suggestion...Rallying Cry!

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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Fri May 25, 2012 3:06 am

Meaning no offence, Corinius, but that is exactly what this thread is. Smile
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by misskooky on Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:17 am

Ok, sorry to necro this thread but I have some ideas?

Ok first up.
Well, my only problem with the fleur is that as a stylized lily, some of the symbolism it carries with it may contribute negative publicity as well. Lillies are a traditional symbol of chastity, virginity, and purity. Even though the fleur is used in other contexts, using it in a "sexually related" context knowing that it contains some of those connotations could further cement our reputation as being "slut shamers" or as celibate-by-choice.

The Fleur de Lis is not in fact a lily, it is a styalised Iris.

According to Pierre-Augustin Boissier de Sauvages, an 18th century French naturalist and lexicographer:[10]

"The old fleurs-de-lis, especially the ones found in our first kings' sceptres, have a lot less in common with ordinary lilies than the flowers called flambas [in Occitan], or irises, from which the name of our own fleur-de-lis may derive. What gives some colour of truth to this hypothesis that we already put forth, is the fact that the French or Franks, before entering Gaul itself, lived for a long time around the river named Luts in the Netherlands. Nowadays, this river is still bordered with an exceptional number of irises —as many plants grow for centuries in the same places—: these irises have yellow flowers, which is not a typical feature of lilies but fleurs-de-lis. It was thus understandable that our kings, having to choose a symbolic image for what later became a coat of arms, set their minds on the iris, a flower that was common around their homes, and is also as beautiful as it was remarkable. They called it, in short, the fleur-de-lis, instead of the flower of the river of lis. This flower, or iris, looks like our fleur-de-lis not just because of its yellow colour but also because of its shape: of the six petals, or leaves, that it has, three of them are alternatively straight and meet at their tops. The other three on the opposite, bend down so that the middle one seems to make one with the stalk and only the two ones facing out from left and right can clearly be seen, which is again similar with our fleurs-de-lis, that is to say exclusively the one from the river Luts whose white petals bend down too when the flower blooms." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleur_de_lis

Irises on the other hand have completely different meaning in the Language of Flowers.

It takes its name from the Greek word for a rainbow, referring to the wide variety of flower colors found among the many species which I think is appropriate when considering a spectrum of people, but also the most recognisable iris species are found in lilac, lavender and purple, which if you added grey white and black would be the colours already existing for this group.

In the language of flowers, to give an iris means: Your Friendship Means so Much to Me, Faith, Hope, Wisdom and Valor, or My Compliments.

Purple irises in particular mean "you mean so much to me" while yellow are more associated with passion.

One thing you could do to separate the associations of royalty from the symbol would be to bring it back to being an iris more. Styalise it less, while still maintaining the reseblance to the fleur de lis. That way you can still wear fleur de lis items on your person to refer to it.

Or alternatively, anything you want can be created from scratch as well. I'm a professional tattooist and an artist by day (and batman at night but that's not relevant) so half of my job is designing symbolic tattoos to integrate meaning with aesthetics. I'm happy to do some designs for this group as well, if I got some imput as to what people would want it to mean and what to avoid.
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:15 pm

This isn't a necro; everybody in the forum is welcome to weigh in on this at any time. Thank you so much for the input! ^_^

If you have any ideas to propose, or visual examples of your ideas, they will certainly be valued.
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by enlightenmentachieved on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:43 pm

Well, I tried to look up symbols on google, but quickly became rather annoyed with that.

Anyhow, I like the idea of combining symbols. I saw that the demisexual symbol is while the asexual (or gray asexual? I'm such a newbie >.<) has this .

Depending on what the third symbol is, could we combine the three?

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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:22 pm

Ehhh... >_<

The triangle is problematic for a great many reasons (association with the Holocaust chief among them), and technically those two symbols were developed by AVEN and symbolize that forum as much or more than they symbolize orientations.

We'd much rather break completely from the involvement of the triangle.
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by enlightenmentachieved on Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:08 pm

Ah, I did not realize that. I apologize. I'm not sure what AVEN is, actually... Ignore me then!

Though I do agree that the Fleur de Lis is probably not the best logo. I know that it started out a heraldry system as a symbol for the fourth oldest son. Now, I know it is a symbol for a few groups, including the Boy Scouts.

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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:15 pm

This is AVEN.
(click the text of that sentence)
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by SlippingStar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:21 am

I actually came up with one, but it hasn't gotten much support over on AVEN.



This is one I thought up. The white, as in the asexuality flag, represents sexual feelings, the black asexual, the the grey grey-a. If read this way, following the white and grey, it shows a "d," for "demisexuality." If turned upside down and read following the white and grey, it shows a "?," for how liking someone for their body kinda confuses us, and how we can't confuses sexual people. I mean, we understand the concept, but when a hetero/homosexual person talks about their partner wanting to go trans, I can't help but think, "Who cares about their body if you love them?" But they do, and they can't help that.

The background is purple so you can see the white, but the color can be something else.
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by Aisling on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:58 pm

That's an interesting design; can't say we've seen anything else like it come up. Let's see if anybody else has any opinions to chip in, before we take steps to implement it as the forum logo (if that is how you would like to see it used). Smile
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

Post by SlippingStar on Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:39 pm

Use it as whatever you wish as long as proper credit is given. It also might be a good idea to spruce it up a bit. xD
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Re: The Fleur de Lis logo: keep, lose, change-to-what?

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